I don't understand

[benlehman]

The amount of flack I've gotten for wanting to teach about Forge theory without arguing about it. Do people not understand the difference between a polemic and a teaching text? Or do the simply not recognize the latter as having any value?

Feh.

Comments

[unrequitedthai.livejournal.com]

I suspect two things:
1) people that believe the theory isn't worthy of being taught
2) people who are more interested in arguing than teaching

[arianhwyvar.livejournal.com]

Also, people are bad at listening. Many of us have trained ourselves or been trained to automatically jump on the first little bit we disagree with or have counter-evidence for, in anything we hear.

I wonder if some of it may also be that people (whether by nature or training, I am not certain) treat teaching differently when it is coming from someone they perceive as being 'in authority' versus someone who they do not. I suspect there is too much of a tendancy to listen too uncritically to those we are told are authorities/in authority ('I must be wrong'), and too critically to those we think are equal or unproven compared to ourselves ('They must be wrong, or they don't know how things are different for me').

Do you have a teaching text on Forge theory? I feel the problems I've had with Forge theory come in large part from a dearth of people presenting it as something that can be taught (with admittedly occasional exceptions), and instead as something that must be pre-understood, or accepted axiomically, and that people who do not innately understand or accept the theory are fools or blind.

[funwithrage.livejournal.com]

Yes, very much so. It's something I've actually noticed in martial arts: if Master Daum asks if *that's* what I call a punch, I'll blush and apologize and correct the hell out of myself. If J. Random Green Belt does it, my first instinct is to go "No, this is," and beat the shit out of him. It's a thing I need to work on, and one which, I think, is pretty human.


And a basic text would be helpful: having mostly not been on Forge/RPG.net, I end up going "Huh?" a lot.

[benlehman.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

I am 2/3rds through a teaching text called "An introduction to Forge Theory" on my other blog -- http://benlehman.blogspot.com/

I'd be very happy to get feedback on it, although (given the above), I'd prefer feedback of the "I don't understand this" sort, rather than that "you are all wrong" sort. If you can say "you are all wrong" and actually say, coherently, why, then the essay has succeeded.

yrs--
--Ben

[arianhwyvar.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I'll definitely check it out. Sadly, I have a tendancy to completely forget about non-LJ blogs these days, now that I have no personal list of them on my own page. I'll try to remember.

[benlehman.livejournal.com]

There is a livejournal feed at thisismyblog, if you care to actually subscribe.

[arianhwyvar.livejournal.com]

Awesome! Got it.

[nikotesla.livejournal.com]

It's also in the nature of the medium. There's no way to let you, or anyone else, know that they've read it other than piping up.

Furthermore, in any college class I ever took, it was assumed that, after reading something, it would be picked apart, not assumed as truth. This is doubly so when someone isn't otherwise established as an authority, as the above poster notes.

[bob-goat.livejournal.com]

You've gotten flak for that? You're kidding me?

[xiombarg.livejournal.com]

You're getting flack? From whom? I have to admit that that makes no sense to me, either (that you'd be getting flack for that).

[apollinax.livejournal.com]

You've been getting flak from the Forge community about this? Ignore it.

Eh. You know my opinion: like most academic communities, the Forge has a couple of really insightful people and a lot of chump lackeys who can only repeat dogma. Question is, from which set do the complaints come from?

The only reason academica has lots of arguing is because there's something at stake. Specifically, the limited set of tenured positions at schools and grant dollars, which academics jockey for in a big pissing match. In fields where there's less resource pressure (e.g., engineering, CS), you see much less arguing and much more discussion.

But anyways. Teach away, man.

[benlehman.livejournal.com]

Nah, not from within the Forge. By and large, those guys have been very supportive. It's just that there's a bunch of people (generally, outskirts sorts) getting up my nose for not "backing up my arguments."

I'm like "What? What's the disconnect?"

yrs--
--Ben

[evilmagnus]

Also, folks may think that any teaching text is secretly:

1. The Doctrine of benlehman
2. Just an ego-trip that they wish they'd thought of first.

But yeah, I'm with Kil on this. Ignore the whiners. You're not doing it for them, and there will always be whiners.

[rob-donoghue.livejournal.com]

I admit, I'd be fascinated to hear some elaboration of this, or at least some context to go poke at. There are lots of interesting potential responses to the question, but it's hard to say which are relevant. Cynically, I'd note that there is such an expectation of polemics that it's hard to convince people to expect anything else. :)

[foreign-devilry.livejournal.com]

Lame, dude. Polemics are for the Turkus. People need to learn how to listen.

And, as a side comment, people who think the Forge presents theory as dogma have obviously never participated in discussions there. Sure, there are some stupid gorillas who like to throw their weight around, but also a lot of people who are generally interested in exploring stuff. And that means questioning previous assumptions, especially Ron's (since they're the basis of so many conversations there).

[rob-donoghue.livejournal.com]

As one of those people, I'm obliged to remark that the presence of intelligent debate doesn't really take the edge off the gorillas if gorillas are what you end up dealing with (any more that the fact that there _are_ pedants means there aren't people seeking thoughtful discussion). I think the holy wars only begin when you start saying who is which. ;)

[foreign-devilry.livejournal.com]

True enough. And sometimes the gorillas wear sheeps' clothing.

Seems like whenever Shreyas and I discuss the Forge nowadays, it's mostly to talk shit or gossip about people whose posts we find annoying or more misleading than helpful. But that doesn't mean we aren't heavily indebted to discussions there.

[benlehman.livejournal.com]

My goal with the essay is to try to get people who come to learn a place to do it away from the gorillas.

We'll see how it works.

yrs--
--Ben

[yeloson.livejournal.com]

On the internet, "everyone's opinion is fact".

Just turn off comments, email the people you WANT TO hear from and keep pushing. I'm impressed at how clearly and succinctly you're putting it all down.

[greyorm.livejournal.com]

Er, who and where and about what specifically? Some context would be helpful in answering your question, otherwise the only real answer anyone can give without basically sitting and wanking in the open is: "Well, it could be for a variety of reasons."

I mean, we've already got people going, "Oh yeah, that's happening because people on the Forge are a bunch of chumps..." et al. and I have no way of knowing if that's even a valid criticism, or just an example of an assumption being used to indulge in some Forge-hatin' lookit' me sneerin' down my nose at group X and thus proving how cool I am crap.

[benlehman.livejournal.com]

No, it's mostly just pure Forge hating from the usual suspects.

yrs--
--Ben