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posted by [personal profile] benlehman at 06:15pm on 18/10/2005
The amount of flack I've gotten for wanting to teach about Forge theory without arguing about it. Do people not understand the difference between a polemic and a teaching text? Or do the simply not recognize the latter as having any value?

Feh.
There are 21 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] unrequitedthai.livejournal.com at 09:29am on 18/10/2005
I suspect two things:
1) people that believe the theory isn't worthy of being taught
2) people who are more interested in arguing than teaching
 
posted by [identity profile] arianhwyvar.livejournal.com at 12:58pm on 18/10/2005
Also, people are bad at listening. Many of us have trained ourselves or been trained to automatically jump on the first little bit we disagree with or have counter-evidence for, in anything we hear.

I wonder if some of it may also be that people (whether by nature or training, I am not certain) treat teaching differently when it is coming from someone they perceive as being 'in authority' versus someone who they do not. I suspect there is too much of a tendancy to listen too uncritically to those we are told are authorities/in authority ('I must be wrong'), and too critically to those we think are equal or unproven compared to ourselves ('They must be wrong, or they don't know how things are different for me').

Do you have a teaching text on Forge theory? I feel the problems I've had with Forge theory come in large part from a dearth of people presenting it as something that can be taught (with admittedly occasional exceptions), and instead as something that must be pre-understood, or accepted axiomically, and that people who do not innately understand or accept the theory are fools or blind.
 
posted by [identity profile] funwithrage.livejournal.com at 08:44pm on 18/10/2005
Yes, very much so. It's something I've actually noticed in martial arts: if Master Daum asks if *that's* what I call a punch, I'll blush and apologize and correct the hell out of myself. If J. Random Green Belt does it, my first instinct is to go "No, this is," and beat the shit out of him. It's a thing I need to work on, and one which, I think, is pretty human.


And a basic text would be helpful: having mostly not been on Forge/RPG.net, I end up going "Huh?" a lot.
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 03:01am on 20/10/2005
Thanks.

I am 2/3rds through a teaching text called "An introduction to Forge Theory" on my other blog -- http://benlehman.blogspot.com/

I'd be very happy to get feedback on it, although (given the above), I'd prefer feedback of the "I don't understand this" sort, rather than that "you are all wrong" sort. If you can say "you are all wrong" and actually say, coherently, why, then the essay has succeeded.

yrs--
--Ben
 
posted by [identity profile] arianhwyvar.livejournal.com at 12:33pm on 20/10/2005
Thanks, I'll definitely check it out. Sadly, I have a tendancy to completely forget about non-LJ blogs these days, now that I have no personal list of them on my own page. I'll try to remember.
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 01:38pm on 20/10/2005
There is a livejournal feed at [livejournal.com profile] thisismyblog, if you care to actually subscribe.
 
posted by [identity profile] arianhwyvar.livejournal.com at 02:20pm on 20/10/2005
Awesome! Got it.
 
posted by [identity profile] nikotesla.livejournal.com at 01:42pm on 18/10/2005
It's also in the nature of the medium. There's no way to let you, or anyone else, know that they've read it other than piping up.

Furthermore, in any college class I ever took, it was assumed that, after reading something, it would be picked apart, not assumed as truth. This is doubly so when someone isn't otherwise established as an authority, as the above poster notes.
 
posted by [identity profile] bob-goat.livejournal.com at 01:50pm on 18/10/2005
You've gotten flak for that? You're kidding me?
 
posted by [identity profile] xiombarg.livejournal.com at 03:11pm on 18/10/2005
You're getting flack? From whom? I have to admit that that makes no sense to me, either (that you'd be getting flack for that).
 
posted by [identity profile] apollinax.livejournal.com at 03:32pm on 18/10/2005
You've been getting flak from the Forge community about this? Ignore it.

Eh. You know my opinion: like most academic communities, the Forge has a couple of really insightful people and a lot of chump lackeys who can only repeat dogma. Question is, from which set do the complaints come from?

The only reason academica has lots of arguing is because there's something at stake. Specifically, the limited set of tenured positions at schools and grant dollars, which academics jockey for in a big pissing match. In fields where there's less resource pressure (e.g., engineering, CS), you see much less arguing and much more discussion.

But anyways. Teach away, man.
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 03:09am on 20/10/2005
Nah, not from within the Forge. By and large, those guys have been very supportive. It's just that there's a bunch of people (generally, outskirts sorts) getting up my nose for not "backing up my arguments."

I'm like "What? What's the disconnect?"

yrs--
--Ben
evilmagnus: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] evilmagnus at 04:04pm on 18/10/2005
Also, folks may think that any teaching text is secretly:

1. The Doctrine of [livejournal.com profile] benlehman
2. Just an ego-trip that they wish they'd thought of first.

But yeah, I'm with Kil on this. Ignore the whiners. You're not doing it for them, and there will always be whiners.
 
posted by [identity profile] rob-donoghue.livejournal.com at 04:08pm on 18/10/2005
I admit, I'd be fascinated to hear some elaboration of this, or at least some context to go poke at. There are lots of interesting potential responses to the question, but it's hard to say which are relevant. Cynically, I'd note that there is such an expectation of polemics that it's hard to convince people to expect anything else. :)
 
posted by [identity profile] foreign-devilry.livejournal.com at 04:10pm on 18/10/2005
Lame, dude. Polemics are for the Turkus. People need to learn how to listen.

And, as a side comment, people who think the Forge presents theory as dogma have obviously never participated in discussions there. Sure, there are some stupid gorillas who like to throw their weight around, but also a lot of people who are generally interested in exploring stuff. And that means questioning previous assumptions, especially Ron's (since they're the basis of so many conversations there).
 
posted by [identity profile] rob-donoghue.livejournal.com at 04:26pm on 18/10/2005
As one of those people, I'm obliged to remark that the presence of intelligent debate doesn't really take the edge off the gorillas if gorillas are what you end up dealing with (any more that the fact that there _are_ pedants means there aren't people seeking thoughtful discussion). I think the holy wars only begin when you start saying who is which. ;)
 
posted by [identity profile] foreign-devilry.livejournal.com at 04:31pm on 18/10/2005
True enough. And sometimes the gorillas wear sheeps' clothing.

Seems like whenever Shreyas and I discuss the Forge nowadays, it's mostly to talk shit or gossip about people whose posts we find annoying or more misleading than helpful. But that doesn't mean we aren't heavily indebted to discussions there.
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 03:05am on 20/10/2005
My goal with the essay is to try to get people who come to learn a place to do it away from the gorillas.

We'll see how it works.

yrs--
--Ben
 
posted by [identity profile] yeloson.livejournal.com at 05:05pm on 18/10/2005
On the internet, "everyone's opinion is fact".

Just turn off comments, email the people you WANT TO hear from and keep pushing. I'm impressed at how clearly and succinctly you're putting it all down.
 
posted by [identity profile] greyorm.livejournal.com at 05:39am on 19/10/2005
Er, who and where and about what specifically? Some context would be helpful in answering your question, otherwise the only real answer anyone can give without basically sitting and wanking in the open is: "Well, it could be for a variety of reasons."

I mean, we've already got people going, "Oh yeah, that's happening because people on the Forge are a bunch of chumps..." et al. and I have no way of knowing if that's even a valid criticism, or just an example of an assumption being used to indulge in some Forge-hatin' lookit' me sneerin' down my nose at group X and thus proving how cool I am crap.
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 03:03am on 20/10/2005
No, it's mostly just pure Forge hating from the usual suspects.

yrs--
--Ben

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