benlehman | (no subject)

A man wandered out from the desert, almost dying of thirst. He met an old man, and begged for a drink of "cool, refreshing water". The old man went over to the well, and came back with water, warm and brackish. "I asked for cool refreshing water!" cried the desert traveler.

"Ah, my friend. We are all prisoners of this world, and prisoners do not always get the best of nutrition."

Man, you don't know the half of it.

I think the analogy would be better if the old man went to te well, came back with a cold bucket of clean, pure water, whipped out his cock, whizzed in it, and then gave it to the other guy.

yrs--
--Ben

Dude, you said important things. You said them well. I'm sorry it pained you, but if you can, take comfort in my enthusiastic applause.

I was pained by what I wrote in that thread, too, but for different reasons. (http://ethan-greer.livejournal.com/12558.html)

Thanks, but that honestly doesn't make it any easier.

I think sometime pretty soon I'm going to have to start some serious discussion on this. Trying to figure out the right forum for it.

yrs--
--Ben

And I thought I was supposed to be the pessimistic one of us two :P

Though, you've been wrestling with the similar issue of your personal relationships and critical analysis for theory, right?

Hrm.

I can talk with you about this, but I'd rather do it in private. Feel free to e-mail or not.

Well I think you're both awesome.

For whatever it's worth, I do.

:-)

Hrm, I think it depends on your definition of feminism. I think the "patriarchal society" definition is somewhat outmoded at this point: feminists, women, and men of the past and present have made a FUCK of a lot of progress in making our society much less patriarchal. I've never particularly felt discriminated against because of my gender. I'll grant you that it can be quite different in different social strata and dramatically different in different countries. In some groups, for example lower- or working-class urban black people, men and women both get a terrible societal shake but the women are often doing BETTER.

I would argue that the principle we should follow (call it feminism or not) is that all people should have options. In a Western upper-middle-class social stratum, which comprises many gamers, women have dramatically opened their life-course and social options while men still have wide swaths that are highly stigmatized. If I wanted to be a chem professor at Harvard I might face some sexism, but try being a stay-at-home dad.

Aw, shucks. Thanks man.

Hee hee. I just started being a stay-at-home dad, so I don't yet have a lot of experience with sexism there.

Ben, you know I don't always agree with you, but sometimes you're the bomb-diggity. And today's one of those days.

I just spent several paragraphs trying to explain to Tony LB that I value Jess and Mo's opinions MORE THAN OTHER PEOPLE's because they tell me things I'm less likely to hear other places. I realize that other people don't feel the same way, but that's where I currently stand. Yay for diversity.

But you already knew I was a leftist vegan commie hippie pinko.

We've broken through the legal barriers, but the social barriers are still quite strong. I really wouldn't say that the patriarchic society is a thing of the past. Not until we have wage equality and stop objectifying women at every turn, for starters.

And I agree wholeheartedly, all people should have options. In fact, in an optimal situation, all people should have the same options. But even in the middle class, women nowadays face pressures against options: pressures to be career women and raise the kids and take care of the house all at once, for example.

Ah. But do you value their opinions because they are different...or because they are women? The former is valid, but I can't see the latter as anything but sexism in drag. (Ok, I'm just using your statement as an example, you don't need to answer that.)

This is where it looks like I break with Ben on this. I don't believe that I should value a woman's opinion more highly than a man's -- or treat them differently, either better or worse -- just because they are a woman and we live in a patriarchally-inclined society. That makes no sense to me.

I rank and value different people's opinions differently based on the behavior, history and attitude of the person in question. Not according to their sex, and regardless of the whims of the culture.

(I also find it interesting/ironic to note that the women posting to that discussion found disturbing the idea of having their opinion being given MORE weight because they were women...and then to have the argument arise that one needs to listen to the opinion of women more popping up with disregard for those statements.)

I would say it's not just because they are women, but I can't pretend that that aspect isn't important. I feel like it's hard to isolate one aspect of a person from all the other aspects. If it helps, I also value Shreyas' opinion more than other people's. And Ben's, especially on certain issues. And Brand's. And Thomas's. And Josh K's. And there are plenty of reasons for me to value Jess and Mo's opinions that have nothing to do with them being women.

While I agree with wage equality and some aspects of society, I have to note, as usual, my vhement disagreement with some of the standard feminist "objectification" arguments: it's not like I particularly care about the hearts and souls and moral character of many men who interest me on a physical level, and it's not as if I treat men, in general, badly because of it.

If this wasn't what you meant by "objectification," I apologize. And blame Brown.

In general, though, I agree that we still face some social pressure--but not enough to merit men giving my opinion extra weight, I think, *except* on a few issues where my opinion comes from experience that they can't have.

That's cool. We don't disagree in any respect here.

I think it depends rather strongly on whether it is more important that your gaming discussion be feminist or that your gaming discussion push the envelope.

Huh?? Here's the odd thing. I think that feminism can push the envelope. In fact, I think that commitment to feminism within gaming is likely to push the envelope, because the box that gaming currently is in is pretty non-feminist.

Jonathan: You're reading me as saying "feminism = good."

I'd just like to point out that this is not what I said.

yrs--
--Ben

See my response to Jon, below.

I don't necessarily agree with feminism. I'm just in the know enough to understand the politics, and not in a position to change them.

yrs--
--Ben

The question is -- can you do that better or worse with a strong commitment to feminist ideals in your discussion?

A lot of women are involved in gaming and have very strong viewpoints. Those viewpoints are, sometimes, wrong. Do you still listen to them?

This isn't rhetorical.

yrs--
--Ben

Ben, give me some credit, 'kay? I know what you're saying.

Alison -- it's a good point.

My comments are specifically nested in the feminist culture that I know Vincent is committed to. Which is not third wave feminism. Does that make things clearer?

yrs--
--Ben

The best answer I have here is "sometimes."

Sometimes, viewpoints can seem wrong when you just don't understand what someone's getting at. Which is why it's dangerous to overlook people. But, there are some women that I disagree with as strongly as I disagree with anyone.

So, I think I tend to listen more carefully to the opinions of women and minorities, to make sure their concerns are acknowledged and addressed, but that doesn't mean they're always right.

Sorry, it seems like a common misreading. My bad.

yrs--
--Ben