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posted by [personal profile] benlehman at 01:38am on 11/04/2006
Most painful thing I've had to write in a while

Why? Because I spend a lot of time and emotionally energy in said isolated circles.

Ahw, fuck it all.
There are 58 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] yeloson.livejournal.com at 05:59pm on 10/04/2006
A man wandered out from the desert, almost dying of thirst. He met an old man, and begged for a drink of "cool, refreshing water". The old man went over to the well, and came back with water, warm and brackish. "I asked for cool refreshing water!" cried the desert traveler.

"Ah, my friend. We are all prisoners of this world, and prisoners do not always get the best of nutrition."
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 06:06pm on 10/04/2006
Man, you don't know the half of it.

I think the analogy would be better if the old man went to te well, came back with a cold bucket of clean, pure water, whipped out his cock, whizzed in it, and then gave it to the other guy.

yrs--
--Ben
 
posted by [identity profile] yeloson.livejournal.com at 06:14pm on 10/04/2006
And I thought I was supposed to be the pessimistic one of us two :P

Though, you've been wrestling with the similar issue of your personal relationships and critical analysis for theory, right?
 
posted by [identity profile] ethan-greer.livejournal.com at 06:09pm on 10/04/2006
Dude, you said important things. You said them well. I'm sorry it pained you, but if you can, take comfort in my enthusiastic applause.

I was pained by what I wrote in that thread, too, but for different reasons. (http://ethan-greer.livejournal.com/12558.html)
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 06:12pm on 10/04/2006
Thanks, but that honestly doesn't make it any easier.

I think sometime pretty soon I'm going to have to start some serious discussion on this. Trying to figure out the right forum for it.

yrs--
--Ben
 
posted by [identity profile] lumpley.livejournal.com at 07:46pm on 10/04/2006
Well I think you're both awesome.

For whatever it's worth, I do.
 
posted by [identity profile] bigbluebackpack.livejournal.com at 08:21pm on 10/04/2006
Hrm, I think it depends on your definition of feminism. I think the "patriarchal society" definition is somewhat outmoded at this point: feminists, women, and men of the past and present have made a FUCK of a lot of progress in making our society much less patriarchal. I've never particularly felt discriminated against because of my gender. I'll grant you that it can be quite different in different social strata and dramatically different in different countries. In some groups, for example lower- or working-class urban black people, men and women both get a terrible societal shake but the women are often doing BETTER.

I would argue that the principle we should follow (call it feminism or not) is that all people should have options. In a Western upper-middle-class social stratum, which comprises many gamers, women have dramatically opened their life-course and social options while men still have wide swaths that are highly stigmatized. If I wanted to be a chem professor at Harvard I might face some sexism, but try being a stay-at-home dad.
 
posted by [identity profile] ethan-greer.livejournal.com at 09:18pm on 10/04/2006
Hee hee. I just started being a stay-at-home dad, so I don't yet have a lot of experience with sexism there.
 
posted by [identity profile] chgriffen.livejournal.com at 09:40pm on 10/04/2006
We've broken through the legal barriers, but the social barriers are still quite strong. I really wouldn't say that the patriarchic society is a thing of the past. Not until we have wage equality and stop objectifying women at every turn, for starters.

And I agree wholeheartedly, all people should have options. In fact, in an optimal situation, all people should have the same options. But even in the middle class, women nowadays face pressures against options: pressures to be career women and raise the kids and take care of the house all at once, for example.
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 02:48am on 11/04/2006
Alison -- it's a good point.

My comments are specifically nested in the feminist culture that I know Vincent is committed to. Which is not third wave feminism. Does that make things clearer?

yrs--
--Ben
 
posted by [identity profile] foreign-devilry.livejournal.com at 09:36pm on 10/04/2006
Ben, you know I don't always agree with you, but sometimes you're the bomb-diggity. And today's one of those days.

I just spent several paragraphs trying to explain to Tony LB that I value Jess and Mo's opinions MORE THAN OTHER PEOPLE's because they tell me things I'm less likely to hear other places. I realize that other people don't feel the same way, but that's where I currently stand. Yay for diversity.

But you already knew I was a leftist vegan commie hippie pinko.
 
posted by [identity profile] greyorm.livejournal.com at 09:50pm on 10/04/2006
Ah. But do you value their opinions because they are different...or because they are women? The former is valid, but I can't see the latter as anything but sexism in drag. (Ok, I'm just using your statement as an example, you don't need to answer that.)

This is where it looks like I break with Ben on this. I don't believe that I should value a woman's opinion more highly than a man's -- or treat them differently, either better or worse -- just because they are a woman and we live in a patriarchally-inclined society. That makes no sense to me.

I rank and value different people's opinions differently based on the behavior, history and attitude of the person in question. Not according to their sex, and regardless of the whims of the culture.

(I also find it interesting/ironic to note that the women posting to that discussion found disturbing the idea of having their opinion being given MORE weight because they were women...and then to have the argument arise that one needs to listen to the opinion of women more popping up with disregard for those statements.)
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 02:44am on 11/04/2006
Jonathan: You're reading me as saying "feminism = good."

I'd just like to point out that this is not what I said.

yrs--
--Ben
 
posted by [identity profile] jhkimrpg.livejournal.com at 11:44pm on 10/04/2006
I think it depends rather strongly on whether it is more important that your gaming discussion be feminist or that your gaming discussion push the envelope.

Huh?? Here's the odd thing. I think that feminism can push the envelope. In fact, I think that commitment to feminism within gaming is likely to push the envelope, because the box that gaming currently is in is pretty non-feminist.
(deleted comment)
 
posted by [identity profile] funwithrage.livejournal.com at 03:37am on 11/04/2006
I also note, now, that I'm reading over the threads and trying to figure out context, and I may have totally the wrong idea from comments, but...


...it's worth noting that, in my yonically-endowed opinion, a girl who feels "excluded" because of dick jokes or the occasional comment about hot chicks is not a girl I'd go particularly far to *include.* In anything.
 
posted by [identity profile] bigbluebackpack.livejournal.com at 07:48am on 11/04/2006
*grin*
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 06:34pm on 11/04/2006
Izzy -- can I recruit you for story games? Please?

yrs--
--Ben
 
posted by [identity profile] thickenergy.livejournal.com at 04:55am on 11/04/2006
Hey Ben,

Just wanted to let you know that I wasn't trying to jump on you in Vincent's marginalia. After reading your responses here I think that we may be at least as much in agreement on certain things as not. Communicating in internet snippets just really tends to skew the larger picture of a person's stance, ideas, and opinions.

 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 06:59am on 11/04/2006
That was *you*?

Man, I would have taken a totally different tack in discussion, knowing what I know about your cultural background.

Ah, well, live and learn.
ext_104690: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] locke61dv.livejournal.com at 05:03am on 11/04/2006
I find what you write, and what you have to say, to be very worthwhile.
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 07:00am on 11/04/2006
Thank you.
 
posted by [identity profile] boxninja.livejournal.com at 07:53am on 11/04/2006
Wow, I wake up in the morning and the thread has exploded. Good stuff, Ben.

My feeling is that most gamers don't want to talk about this stuff, and that's fine for them. But, I guess, we aren't most gamers?!
 
posted by [identity profile] benlehman.livejournal.com at 07:12pm on 11/04/2006
Fuck, man. I don't want to talk about this stuff.

As I said above, it hurts. Just soldiering on anyway.

yrs--
--Ben

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