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I didn't join in during the previous rounds, so please let me know if there's some context I'm missing.

Honestly, some days, I do find myself wishing that it was harder for people with rabidly essentialist mindsets to get into office. Filtering out non-atheists would be a pretty crude way to achieve that: you'd be barring quite a few of the people I consider delusional hypocrites, but at the expense of also barring numerous people I consider entirely reasonable and trustworthy. Doesn't seem all that effective.

-- Alex

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I also think that assumes atheists are always, or mostly always, non-"rabidly essentialist", a thing I've not found to be true.

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Oh, no, I don't assume that at all. Hence why I don't think it would actually work.

Most of the time, when I run into terrible atheists, they're, like, self-righteous adolescents on an Internet forum (given that there's, like, four prominent media atheists and effectively zero politicians). And the crappy behavior of those random assholes don't trigger my "Jesus Fuck, is there no way to keep this psycho out of power?" wishful-thinking reflex nearly as much as seeing all the insane theocrats and pseudo-religious kleptocrats actually wielding power does.

-- Alex

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Heh. Yeah, I didn't want to turn this into my "fundamentalist atheists, oy vey!" rant, but I do think the difference between random assholes and scary anything-crats is really a function of majority and power...

There's also the "worst people are loudest" effect in any ideological community, of course.

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In modern America, I think there's a difference in the character of those ideological communities rather than just their numbers.

Most of the annoying atheists I've run into -- I call them "Junior Atheists" when I'm being an asshole -- are basically kids who are more invested in identifying as "smart" than actually learning. They've arrived at their over-simplified self-righteous atheist ideals the same way they've arrived at most of their beliefs: they find a flaw in some general consensus, adopt a "smarter" contrary position, but then don't work up the intellectual curiosity to further refine their understanding.

You see this behavior in other stuff they do. Like, for instance, these are the folks who learn that "the Civil War was about slavery" is an oversimplification, so they instead proudly say "the Civil War wasn't about slavery" (for non-ideological reasons: I'm not talking about the Sons of Confederate Veterans here) -- and remember some supporting evidence about economic friction and whatnot -- but never give it enough thought to realize that, yes, the Civil War had complex causes, but 1850s America was absolutely obsessed with the future of slavery.

I called 'em "kids" because I associate that pattern with adolescence. Not everyone grows out of it, I know. And, that, to me, is most of the crappy atheists. They're self-absorbed and uncritical, but you can push most of them out of their ignorance with enough time invested.

Straight-up fundies, on the other hand, also have subcultures built around systematically retarding personal conscience and intellectual curiosity, with value systems that prioritize preserving their crazy bubbles above all else. That's way more dangerous and harder to fix, in my opinion.

Certainly Totalitarian communists tried to set up cultural and educational systems like that, but I've yet to see even a glimmer of that taking hold in the US -- unlike the perpetually-recurring theocratic nutbags we usually treat with kid gloves as long as they dress up nice and label themselves correctly.

-- Alex

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I think that's the above point about "majority and power." Atheists aren't a majority in the US, and don't hold much political power as a group, so they don't get the same chances to be as awful. I tend not to think there's anything special about atheism that would safeguard against abuse of power if atheists are the majority.

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Fringers and fundies without massive political power still manage to do the weird indoctrination thing. All it really takes is having an insular community. US atheism doesn't have the same closed-off-ness. I don't think it actually equips you to govern any better than, say, Christian socialism (probably way less, actually), but I do think they are qualitative structural differences that make atheism as we know it (which is bigger than just not believing in God) more functional and less corrupting than a number of modern American sects, independent of majority or power.

-- Alex

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"Fringers and fundies" is a pretty vague term. If you're referring to cults, sure, though I would bet there are some atheist cults out there that are just as creepy and indoctrinating. And many hardcore fundamentalist groups do have a sizable chunk of political power-- Church A or Denomination B may not be a powerful majority by themselves, but many of their political goals are shared by other churches and denominations.

I'm trying to think what defines atheism, other than not believing in any spiritual or supernatural beings. I'm thinking other qualities would be: being against spiritual and superstitious beliefs, being strongly pro-science, and elevating rational thought, plus a contrary streak.

My guess is that the contrary streak you identified in American atheists is the result of growing up in families or environments where many of the people around are religious. If the default growing up was atheism, I don't think that would be present. And I don't think the other qualities actually make a government less prone to corruption and oppression.

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"being against spiritual and superstitious beliefs, being strongly pro-science, and elevating rational thought, plus a contrary streak"

I think that's an accurate summary of what the "professional atheists" are about.

-- Alex

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I'd just like to point out in this sub-thread that it's not that atheists have less political power and influence than right-wing Christian and pseudo-Christian cults, it's that we have no political power. There is precisely one non-theistic member of Congress, while there are tens of millions of non-religious Americans (whether they identify as atheist or agnostic or just unaffiliated). Furthermore, polls consistently show that voters will not vote for an atheist—there's one rather amusing poll from around 2000 showing that voters were far more willing to vote for a gay person or a Muslim than an atheist.

I also contest your assertion that there are creepy atheist cults out there, at least in the US. If you accept into your definition of modern atheism the elevation of rational thought, that includes argumentation—making it really hard to stifle discourse. Sure, atheist communities might kick out someone who wasn't a sincere atheist, or they might try to persuade that person to adopt an atheist stance, but I don't think real indoctrination occurs very often. Furthermore, since the only required stance is non-belief in God, everything else (political issues like taxes, personal issues like monogamy) is still up for grabs. Note that that isn't true in actual creepy atheist cults—they include lots of statist dogma as well. (Christopher Hitchens speaks eloquently about this problem in his book God Is Not Great.)

Atheism means not believing in God, but it also means not having a religion or religious organization. It's not just another belief system, any more than vacuum is just another type of atmosphere. There's a (non-)belief, but there's no system.

Matt

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I totally contest that "there's no system." That's just bullshit and wrong. The "new atheists," as a movement, are way more organized than most religions on the planet (exceptions include most Christian denominations.) They have conferences, retreats, writers, leaders, study sessions, rights organizing, etc, not to mention a pile of self-help books only rivaled by American Protestantism.

Also, you're pulling a slight of hand if you say that here are tens of millions of atheists not getting representation. I feel decently represented by McDermott, Murray, and Cantwell, regardless of their religious beliefs (which I don't even know) and if a hard-right Dawkins-style atheist was elected in place of one of them, I would be far *worse* represented in Congress in terms of religious beliefs (or lack thereof or whatever). This despite being "none of the above" on a census form.

yrs--
--Ben

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Hmm. I still say there's no "belief system," even if there is a system.

Maybe I should start going to these atheist cons!

I don't think it's unreasonable to wish that being an atheist weren't automatic disqualification for office in this country. In fact I had assumed that's what the thought experiment was about—assuming the opposite of reality.

Matt

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It's not exactly a thought experiment -- there are plenty of countries with religious tests for holding public office, and at least one (I think more than one) require atheist beliefs.

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Which ones? China doesn't count.

Matt

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Why not? You may think "oh, China is totally different" but they don't think that. Party members are required to espouse atheism, to take classes in atheist thought, etc. Is there a reason to say "China doesn't count" other than "I personally feel uncomfy about it?"

Nonetheless: Laos, Vietnam, North Korea although that's an edge case (I wouldn't consider Jurchen a form of atheism although it is atheist.)

yrs--
--Ben

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China doesn't count because it doesn't fit your other stipulation! There's no freedom of religion in China.

Furthermore, just how democratically are public officials chosen in China? Are there even elections?

Matt

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Article 36 of the Chinese constitution guarantees freedom of religion.

Now, this isn't followed up on, in practice. But I think that that's what happens when you provide special privileges to one group, in general.

yrs--
--Ben

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Elections aren't in the initial post.

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"sleight of hand."

argh.

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Well, there were Ayn Rand's devotees back in the day. Distinctly atheist and rather cult-like. Nowadays, though, you see tons of theists reverently talking about Atlas Shrugged, like it's just another part of the canon of Supply-Side Jesus (i.e. the version of Jesus you'll find on WorldNetDaily).

-- Alex

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I say "less" instead of "none" because statistically, atheists are more likely to be white, male, and well-educated than the general population. That equals some measure of political power, even if one can't run for office. I agree that being unable to run for office is a handicap, but it's not the same as being absolutely powerless.

There is also a difference between cultural prejudice and having those prejudices enshrined in the law of the land. There was a time when being Catholic could make someone unelectable, and now there are a ton of Catholics in office. I tend to think the same will happen with atheists because there is a movement.

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That's true, and I hope you're right about the analogy with Catholics.

Matt

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Context: The immediate spur was Richard Dawkins calling Martin Rees a "compliant quisling" for accepting the Templeton prize.

yrs--
--Ben

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Slight correction: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/06/martin-rees-templeton-prize-god-wars

Relevant 'graph: "Last year, Dawkins published an ugly outburst against the softly spoken astronomer, calling him a "compliant Quisling" because of his views on religion. And now, Rees has seemingly hit back. He has accepted the 2011 Templeton prize, awarded for making an exceptional contribution to investigating life's spiritual dimension. It is worth an incongruous $1m."

So the quisling comment actually came first, at least according this article.

Matt

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Correction noted. Thanks!

Note that Quisling is a particularly political term. My thought is "ok, so if even associating with religion is unacceptable, politically, what is the appropriate political system?"

yrs--
--Ben

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May