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The Victim test
I've been thinking about this lately. One thing which often comes up in discussions of discrimination is "but I'm discriminated against for being [white, conservative, male, whatever.]" My initial thought range here is "conservative."
I think that a lot of conservatives use this argument (this is me giving them the benefit of the doubt: that they're not just immature losers) is because they see it working with liberals, but don't really understand why. For instance, in some discussions, I'm going to privilege a woman speaking over a man speaking, for any number of reasons. Conservatives see that privileging, and want a piece of it, but don't really understand how to get it.
To be fair, that they are discriminated against is almost certainly true on some level. I cannot imagine any category which someone could belong to which would not cause someone to be biased against them in some way, particularly if we're going to include unconscious bias. The question is: do I have to give a fuck? Or, in other words, are they discriminated against enough that I should care?
I have found my line in the sand for this!
"If, in your society, someone who belongs to said group has suffered un-punished murder at the hands of a group -OR- uninvestigated murder at the hands of the police, explicitly due to them being a member of said group. Furthermore, the more recently this is the case, the more I give a fuck."
So. Gays? Check. Black people? Super-check. Women? Yeah, although not as much as black people. Indians? Jesus Christ.
Jews? Sorta check.
So the question is: has anyone ever been institutionally murdered in the US for being a conservative?
The answer is yes. During the revolutionary war, people were killed -- sometimes in brutal ways -- for the crime of being Loyalists. Now, this was a long time ago. But if a conservative wants to identify themselves with the Loyalist faction (which is, indeed, their intellectual ancestry) I will grant them a privileged voice in appropriate conversations*. But I'm not sure any conservative I know would be willing to do that.
* Offer also extends to communists, who were much more recently institutionally murdered in the US.
I think that a lot of conservatives use this argument (this is me giving them the benefit of the doubt: that they're not just immature losers) is because they see it working with liberals, but don't really understand why. For instance, in some discussions, I'm going to privilege a woman speaking over a man speaking, for any number of reasons. Conservatives see that privileging, and want a piece of it, but don't really understand how to get it.
To be fair, that they are discriminated against is almost certainly true on some level. I cannot imagine any category which someone could belong to which would not cause someone to be biased against them in some way, particularly if we're going to include unconscious bias. The question is: do I have to give a fuck? Or, in other words, are they discriminated against enough that I should care?
I have found my line in the sand for this!
"If, in your society, someone who belongs to said group has suffered un-punished murder at the hands of a group -OR- uninvestigated murder at the hands of the police, explicitly due to them being a member of said group. Furthermore, the more recently this is the case, the more I give a fuck."
So. Gays? Check. Black people? Super-check. Women? Yeah, although not as much as black people. Indians? Jesus Christ.
Jews? Sorta check.
So the question is: has anyone ever been institutionally murdered in the US for being a conservative?
The answer is yes. During the revolutionary war, people were killed -- sometimes in brutal ways -- for the crime of being Loyalists. Now, this was a long time ago. But if a conservative wants to identify themselves with the Loyalist faction (which is, indeed, their intellectual ancestry) I will grant them a privileged voice in appropriate conversations*. But I'm not sure any conservative I know would be willing to do that.
* Offer also extends to communists, who were much more recently institutionally murdered in the US.
no subject
You: Thankfully, common sense came into play there and it stopped after people figured out I wouldn't pull something like that.
Me: To be fair, that they are discriminated against is almost certainly true on some level.
I admit my grammar sucks, but this is what you're describing.
I'm talking about institutional murder. Do you have any doubt that, if you were killed, it would have been investigated with standard police procedure?
I don't.
yrs--
--Ben
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Yeah, in regards to the murder question. I'm pretty sure that I would, but not because of my race or political views. I'd more attribute it to that I have family who was (and some are still in) law enforcement. While it is a different problem of preference altogether, I'm sure that fact didn't hurt in catching the two who did nearly kill me (no exaggeration there, the hospital's chief surgeon worked on me personally, said I was the second worse case he'd seen still alive after the incident.) although the leader of the group got 6 months in the slammer when it came to sentencing after skipping his first court hearing and then being hauled back when he got caught doing carjackings in Santa Cruz.
But how do the actions and crimes of the past somehow rationalize one unrelated person's views as invalid or less than another at this very moment?
Shouldn't any mistreatment done to ANYONE be criticized?
no subject
You're arguing about something I'm not saying.
Here's a basic reading comprehension exercise: restate what I'm saying in your own words, without making fun of it or inserting your own arguments.
yrs--
--Ben
no subject
Am I on the money here?
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yrs--
--Ben
no subject
no subject
Sometimes there are groups of people that try to convince me (and others of similar views) that they should get such a privileged voice, based on whatever criteria. Since any group suffers some form of group-based discrimination from *someone*, you can't just say "anyone who suffers discrimination" or you end up with ridiculous oppression olympics bullshit. I have previously gone with my gut instincts about this.
Now I realized that institutional murder makes a darned good criterion for figuring out whether I should be making sure that someone's voice gets heard (by me, or by others.) For various reasons, which I can go into but I doubt you care about.
Interestingly, this has made me think twice about my previously held gut instincts. Example, conservatives, who in the form of Loyalists really were subject to institutional murder during the Revolution.
My attempt
Given that there is a certain unavoidable level of discrimination present in the world at large and most societies, at which point, should I [ben] begin to grant others special treatment because of the discrimination they experience?
Re: My attempt
no subject