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posted by [personal profile] benlehman at 03:39pm on 12/07/2008
Since there is so much discussion of it recently.

So, my people in Polaris are explicitly (rather than implicitly) white.

"The people that live in the memory of Polaris are tall, thin, and beautiful. Their hair is silver and gold and all the colors of the sky at night and their skin is so thin that you can see their pale blue veins beneath it."

Now, anyone who is white and reading this, please do me a favor and turn over your arm. Note that you can very clearly see the blue blood in your veins through your skin. It's a pretty standard trait of white people.

Nonetheless, almost everyone who has talked about these people with me makes the assumption that they are, you know, albino, or translucent, or in some other way super-white, or that they are magical elves (they are neither), or in some other way different in appearance from, you know, skinny northern Europeans.

I wonder if this is because whiteness is so much the assumed default that, if the writer takes the time to describe the skin of a character, that character must be divergent from the norm somehow.

Or it could just be that I'm an unclear writer.
There are 28 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] redcrosse.livejournal.com at 01:25am on 13/07/2008
I will admit that in perusing Polaris, I did pick up a very heavy Aryan-supremacy vibe. Also in Bliss Stage. Not to mention my pancake syrup this morning.
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 03:38am on 13/07/2008
...in Bliss Stage?

The only thing that creepy I've picked up in Bliss Stage is a loli Sara Smith.

(Runs)
 
posted by [identity profile] redcrosse.livejournal.com at 04:13pm on 13/07/2008
The above post was not a true statement.
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 06:14pm on 13/07/2008
I was playing Keenan at the time.

And Sara's like what, 13?
 
posted by [identity profile] amberley.livejournal.com at 06:46pm on 13/07/2008
Sarah's 14, Keenan's only 15. Shouldn't it be more disturbing Anna's 17 and sleeping with the last man on earth (Josh's dad), who must be in his 30s or 40s? Which in turn is probably not as disturbing as if Anna wound up also sleeping with Josh, and compared them in Josh's hearing. That would be SO WRONG.

"Every book is three books, after all: the one the writer intended, the one the reader expected, and the one that casts its shadow when the first two meet by moonlight." -- John M. Ford, Rules of Engagement
Edited Date: 2008-07-13 06:47 pm (UTC)
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 06:53pm on 13/07/2008
...Yes. Now that you mention it. Ick.

Let's just face it... Bliss Stage is a squick factory.

Although I love it if only for this conversation with my friend Andrea, regarding two very close male teachers of mine.

Me: "So that would put them at Intimacy 4?"

Andrea: "For being pantsless? At least."
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 06:44am on 14/07/2008
Let's try clarifying that again!

"The only thing that creepy that I've picked up in Bliss Stage was a loli Sarah Smith."

Read as

"It's creepy that I've gone out with a 13 year old in character while playing Bliss Stage."

Double entendre on 'picked up.'
 
posted by [identity profile] redcrosse.livejournal.com at 06:46pm on 13/07/2008
I was referring to my post as being untrue. I'm unfamiliar enough with the Bliss Stage pregen characters to be unable to judge the truth or falsity of your statements about them.
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 06:50pm on 13/07/2008
Understood. This is why we need [sarcasm] tags.
 
posted by [identity profile] emergent.livejournal.com at 02:10am on 13/07/2008
If I read that passage in any work, I would get a mental image of individuals paler than (almost all of) my white peers. First, the slightly-unnatural hair description sets them up as looking somewhat ethereal. Second, there's a vast difference between pale enough to see veins on underside of arm where one does not spot them in normal conversation/interaction, and seeing them on places that would be immediately apparent- e.g. face. The latter is uncommon, though certainly not impossible, among standard issue New England whiteys.
 
posted by [identity profile] russiandude.livejournal.com at 04:34am on 13/07/2008
Upon first reading the passage, I did immediately get a feeling that these people were much paler than I am. However, upon further reading, it occurred to me that there was nothing saying they were explicitly white.

After all, they could have darker skin so thin you can see the veins beneath it. And/Or their veins could be a bit more prominently blue.
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 03:37am on 13/07/2008
I'm *fairly* sure that it's just us being stupid, yeah.

I'll admit to examining the veins in my wrist as soon as I read that and going "...whaddaya know."

Oh yeah... did you ever get around to playtesting That Thing I sent you?
 
posted by [identity profile] apollinax.livejournal.com at 06:12am on 13/07/2008
Reading that description, I imagine a skin hue in which veins are visible all over the body, not just in particular places which receive little sun. For example, while yes, many people can see blue veins in their arms, only in very pale people is the skin so translucent that you see blue veins in a face.
 
posted by [identity profile] apollinax.livejournal.com at 06:13am on 13/07/2008
And so I guess I'm on the same page as [livejournal.com profile] emergent.
evilmagnus: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] evilmagnus at 05:12pm on 13/07/2008
It was the use of the word 'thin' to describe the skin that changed the image for me. I say this as a genuine pasty North Euro with blue veins that elicit cries of joy from phlebotomists. Change that last bit to "their skin is so pale that you can see their blue veins beneath it" and I get, well, North Euro stock.

But I didn't go as far as albino space pixies.
 
posted by [identity profile] denyse.livejournal.com at 05:15pm on 13/07/2008
I see blue veins in most caucasian people and some east asian people all the time. [livejournal.com profile] evilmagnus occasionally tells me to stop eyeing his veins like I want to pop an IV into them (they're so big and blue, an intern couldn't miss 'em!) But mostly, it's the wrist and that sort of area.

Y'all pale whities to me. Except those of you who aren't.
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 08:11pm on 13/07/2008
I agree that it's the word 'thin' throwing people off.
 
posted by [identity profile] sirogit.livejournal.com at 08:09pm on 13/07/2008
The things that made me think that the people of polaris were unusual were that A) Stating that you can see pale blue viens beneath their skin implies that you can see blue viens -all around their body-, in the same way to say that someone is wrinkly implies that they are wrinkly -all around their body- rather than in one paticular place as most men tend to be from time to time.

B) From that sentence alone about hair, I would assume that the character's hair could be both shades of dark blue and silver regardless of age, for the same reasons stated above.

Note that that's reading within the context of making crazy ice world fantasy make sense, as opposed to reading it in the context of a discussion about RPGs and race, which my response would probably be "HAR! He's talkin' about us whiteys!"
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 08:50pm on 13/07/2008
In the interest of Science, let's see if this actually does make it clearer...

"The people that live in the memory of Polaris are tall, thin, and beautiful. Their hair is silver, or gold, or any of the colors of the sky at night; and their skin is so pale that you can sometimes see their pale blue veins beneath it."
 
posted by [identity profile] russiandude.livejournal.com at 05:54am on 14/07/2008
I would say "light blue" instead of "pale blue" to avoid repeating the word pale in the same sentence.
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 06:39am on 14/07/2008
Oops. Copypasta fails again.

...It does seem better to me.
 
posted by [identity profile] psychotropek.livejournal.com at 01:01am on 14/07/2008
I don't consider myself white, and I can see some veins on the underside of my arm. Two of 'em.
 
posted by [identity profile] joepub.livejournal.com at 06:12am on 14/07/2008
Ben, your writing makes them feel more than white.
In the same way that your writing makes Polaris seem like more than an opulent city. In the same way that your writing makes the Mistake seem like more than a demon invasion brought on by sin.

The people of Polaris read as being hyper-white. I imagine them looking similar to the elves in the LotR movies.

Which isn't to say I don't see them as white, or human. I do. Just a hyper-embellished version thereof.
 
posted by [identity profile] tigerbunny-db.livejournal.com at 01:36pm on 14/07/2008
Yah. They're mythically white. The ur-Aryans of Ultima Thule.
 
posted by [identity profile] xiombarg.livejournal.com at 08:01pm on 14/07/2008
I think seeing them as albinos or elves fits very well with the general ethereal feeling of the work.
 
posted by [identity profile] yeloson.livejournal.com at 08:14pm on 14/07/2008
I wonder if this is because whiteness is so much the assumed default that, if the writer takes the time to describe the skin of a character, that character must be divergent from the norm somehow.

Based on the replies so far, I'd say yeah.
 
posted by [identity profile] unrequitedthai.livejournal.com at 08:43pm on 14/07/2008
Agreed. Whiteness is beneath notice, so obviously all description must be about un-whiteness.
 
posted by [identity profile] l-the-fangirl.livejournal.com at 02:13am on 15/07/2008
Heh... busted~!

I've found that, when I ask someone to do art for me, for like a fic or a game or something, I tend to explicitly mention descriptive skin tones. I take the time to say "Skin Tone: Pale Pink," "Skin Tone: Ruddy Pink" and the like. This is partially because I find that doing so to describe a white guy is absolutely unneeded, which I find a little creepy. Partially because "White Guy" could be any number of skin tones. (Sigh.)

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