I'm sorry you could not see the irony in my post. Perhaps I could have been more explicit.
I've never called atheism a religion or a faith. The post you linked to was meant to illustrate how misunderstood the entire concept of atheism is--both intentional and unintentional.
Your original post said--very explicitly:
"Attention atheists who say 'atheists don't do horrible things in the name of their religion.'
Are you now clarifying that you do not qualfiy atheism as a religion?
The men who flew planes into buildings were not suffering political, racial or economic disadvantage. They were all well-educated men. Men with PHDs, MDs, and higher education degrees. They were professionals who were at the top of the economic ladder in those countries. They also happened to belong to a faith that taught them suicide would be rewarded in the afterlife.
Please show me how politics, racism or economics reward someone for killing themselves.
Suicide attacks are unrelated to religious extremism. (The Tamil Tigers, for instance, are atheists, but make heavy use of suicide bombing. The Japanese kamikaze had no particular afterlife belief.) They are related to occupation of a homeland by foreign powers. In the case of the 9/11 hijackers, this was Saudi Arabia, occupied by the US.
Are you familiar with Robert Pape's (http://political-science.uchicago.edu/faculty/pape.shtml) work on this? here (http://books.google.com/books?id=abebAAAACAAJ&dq=Robert+Anthony+Pape&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=robert+pape&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=2&cad=author-navigational) It's basically one of the only systematic studies of suicide attacks ever performed.
It's preliminary (like with any analytical theory, if you do a google search you will find people who have bones to pick with him) but it's also quite compelling, and stands as a pretty comprehensive study.
Just to be clear, did you mean to type "There are suicide attacks that are unrelated to religious extremism?" Because I think that first sentence is a typo.
All of this is stuff we can talk about, but my primary concern about your post was qualifying atheism as a religion. I'm glad we sorted that out. We should talk more at GenCon (this kind of format really isn't appropriate for this kind of discussion--as evidenced by the 40 or so posts we went through to clear up a single semantic point).
I'm sorry. What did you just say about the Japanese Kamikaze? The Japanese were NEVER occupied until AFTER they signed the surrender.
We bombed the hell out of them, both conventionally and otherwise, but they killed themselves because of a misguided faith in their Emperor and his ministers, their commanders. They believed, like good Shinto/Buddhists do that they would be reborn and rewarded for their sacrifice to their nation. Sometimes their rational brains won out over their irrational beliefs, but not always.
State Shinto, the primary religion during WW2-era Japan, didn't have reincarnation. Shinto in general doesn't really spend a lot of time on the afterlife, really. And the major forms of Japanese Buddhism, such as Zen and Pure Land Buddhism, also don't have any reincarnation. So I don't think the kamikaze pilots thought they were going to be reborn and rewarded. I would guess that they thought they were defending their homeland from the threat of foreign invasion, especially given that they were named after the "divine wind" (kamikaze) that wiped out the Mongol fleets when they tried to invade Japan.
Well of course they thought that, but you're thinking in an exclusionary mindset that most of us Westerners use when we think about religion. Many people in Asia who are Buddhists are also other things. This has not always been the case, but in some places, especially in Japan there are well known temples that contain Shinto Shrines and Buddhist shrines.
I have a friend who was born and raised in Korea who, until he went to college, had a combination of religions that his family observed, one of them being Buddhism.
So I'm not arguing that the Shinto actually believed in reincarnation, or that the Jodo sect of Buddhism focused on reincarnation, but they didn't discount it.
Also, if you had a hardcore Jodo Buddhist you could make the same argument that many Wahabi extremists clerics make to their suicide bombers, and that their act of protecting their homeland makes them pure and they will go to the Pure Land and never have to be reincarnated, or go to Hell.
Ugh, I wish I would have all this in just one reply. While Jodo, and I don't know enough about Zen in the particulars regarding the afterlife, doesn't focus on reincarnation, it definitely has it. Like Christianity, they see Buddha as a savior that will take you to Heaven so that you will escape Hell, if you're devout enough (say enough chants/Hail Mary's), but they do believe you'll get another chance after you've spent a long time in Hell, just like the other forms of Buddhism.
The ENTIRE idea of Pure Land is to escape the cycle of Death and Re-birth. They see it as a bad thing, not a learning process. They see Buddha as a 'Get out of Jail Free' card, if they follow his twelve step program.
So while they aren't keen on it entirely, they do believe in reincarnation.
I don't care if Atheism is classified as a religion or not. If it makes you more comfortable to amend the above to "Atheists who say 'Atheists don't do horrible things in the name of Atheism'" I'm totally okay with that. As far as I can tell, my meaning is unchanged.
Actually, that changes your meaning quite a bit. Religion is a statement of faith (belief without evidence). As far as I can tell, atheists do not come to the conclusion of atheism from faith, but from looking at evidence.
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I've never called atheism a religion or a faith. The post you linked to was meant to illustrate how misunderstood the entire concept of atheism is--both intentional and unintentional.
Your original post said--very explicitly:
"Attention atheists who say 'atheists don't do horrible things in the name of their religion.'
Are you now clarifying that you do not qualfiy atheism as a religion?
The men who flew planes into buildings were not suffering political, racial or economic disadvantage. They were all well-educated men. Men with PHDs, MDs, and higher education degrees. They were professionals who were at the top of the economic ladder in those countries. They also happened to belong to a faith that taught them suicide would be rewarded in the afterlife.
Please show me how politics, racism or economics reward someone for killing themselves.
no subject
Are you familiar with Robert Pape's (http://political-science.uchicago.edu/faculty/pape.shtml) work on this? here (http://books.google.com/books?id=abebAAAACAAJ&dq=Robert+Anthony+Pape&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=robert+pape&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=2&cad=author-navigational) It's basically one of the only systematic studies of suicide attacks ever performed.
It's preliminary (like with any analytical theory, if you do a google search you will find people who have bones to pick with him) but it's also quite compelling, and stands as a pretty comprehensive study.
yrs--
--Ben
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no subject
The presence or absence of religious extremism does not appear to be correlated to the presence or absence of suicide attacks.
Happy?
yrs--
--Ben
no subject
All of this is stuff we can talk about, but my primary concern about your post was qualifying atheism as a religion. I'm glad we sorted that out. We should talk more at GenCon (this kind of format really isn't appropriate for this kind of discussion--as evidenced by the 40 or so posts we went through to clear up a single semantic point).
no subject
I'm sorry. What did you just say about the Japanese Kamikaze? The Japanese were NEVER occupied until AFTER they signed the surrender.
We bombed the hell out of them, both conventionally and otherwise, but they killed themselves because of a misguided faith in their Emperor and his ministers, their commanders. They believed, like good Shinto/Buddhists do that they would be reborn and rewarded for their sacrifice to their nation. Sometimes their rational brains won out over their irrational beliefs, but not always.
no subject
no subject
I have a friend who was born and raised in Korea who, until he went to college, had a combination of religions that his family observed, one of them being Buddhism.
So I'm not arguing that the Shinto actually believed in reincarnation, or that the Jodo sect of Buddhism focused on reincarnation, but they didn't discount it.
no subject
no subject
The ENTIRE idea of Pure Land is to escape the cycle of Death and Re-birth. They see it as a bad thing, not a learning process. They see Buddha as a 'Get out of Jail Free' card, if they follow his twelve step program.
So while they aren't keen on it entirely, they do believe in reincarnation.
no subject
yrs--
--Ben
no subject