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Attention Atheists
Attention atheists who say "atheists don't do horrible things in the name of their religion."
Please go read a book about the cultural revolution.
Please go read a book about the cultural revolution.
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Ben, if you have an argument to make, then by all means make it, and cite your sources. Why should we do your homework for you?
Ben, I love you. Just for being you.
Shall we call that the anti-Crusades gambit?
Okay, I did read the Wikipedia article. I'll admit it was pretty vile. On the other hand, it looks to me like it was one faction of Chinese Communism doing vile things in the name of Communism, or at least in the name of "not sharing authority over other people". If you have a source that says otherwise, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
My favorite is "no one who is intelligent/a scientist can believe in God". Usually coupled with a statement about how atheists base all their arguments on evidence.
You know what I have to say to that?
You know what I have to say to that?
Wait Ben, you're saying there isn't a simple system of thought to which if the whole world subscribed, we'd live in a perfect world free of pain and disharmony?!?
*Head Explodes*
Panaceas come in all forms, sadly, they're all placebos, too.
*Head Explodes*
Panaceas come in all forms, sadly, they're all placebos, too.
Edited 2008-05-03 04:18 (UTC)
Albert Einstein didn't believe in a god in any sense that most people use the word. This is a quote from The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins:
"One of Einstein's most eagerly quoted remarks is 'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.' But Einstein also said,
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
"One of Einstein's most eagerly quoted remarks is 'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.' But Einstein also said,
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
I heard good things about Panacea-derived pills! There's even a treatment now to take the panacea plant and remove the minerals and impurities and placebos from it. The FDA won't approve it, but you can still get it at Whole Foods.
That sounds right, but I can't really get behind this idea that the word 'religion' just means 'anytime people believe something a lot.' I guess I'm not a religious scholar but I always thought there was more to it than that -- and so refuting a statement about religion with evidence about communism just seems kind of weird.
The original statement just seems to be true by definition, and so also kind of weird.
...and so was Maoist Communism. Both killed lots of people. ;-p
So you missed off Stalin and (Godwin!) Hitler, too. Although both of them, and Mao, were raised in religion. And all of them placed their political desires ahead of whatever religious beliefs, or lack thereof, they happened to subscribe to.
So, yeah. Did you get gang-banged by Richard Dawkins or something? :)
So, yeah. Did you get gang-banged by Richard Dawkins or something? :)
The cultural revolution had nothing to do with atheism or Communism. It was (and is) a dictatorship. A foul, ruthless tyranny hiding behind various masks. But in the end, it is still a tyranny.
The reason the revolution attempts to destroy religion is because it wants its people to worship the state. No authority is higher than the state. If you have any religion at all in that environment, you have dissent. China doesn't want dissent, it wants pure and blind obedience.
China is not a good example to use in this context. It hasn't performed any action "in the name of atheism;" it performed actions in the name of a small number of men who wanted power at all costs. That isn't atheism, that's tyranny.
The reason the revolution attempts to destroy religion is because it wants its people to worship the state. No authority is higher than the state. If you have any religion at all in that environment, you have dissent. China doesn't want dissent, it wants pure and blind obedience.
China is not a good example to use in this context. It hasn't performed any action "in the name of atheism;" it performed actions in the name of a small number of men who wanted power at all costs. That isn't atheism, that's tyranny.
Atheism, at the time, held a specific status as the most favored religious belief in China, enshrined in the Constitution. I can look up the exact article for you if you like.
Atheism still holds privileged status in the PRC, although no longer (that I know of: the latest constitution is a mess) constitutionally.
The actions of the cultural revolution were taken in the name of atheism, exactly as much as the actions of the crusades or the inquisition were taken in the name of Christianity.
yrs--
--Ben
Atheism still holds privileged status in the PRC, although no longer (that I know of: the latest constitution is a mess) constitutionally.
The actions of the cultural revolution were taken in the name of atheism, exactly as much as the actions of the crusades or the inquisition were taken in the name of Christianity.
yrs--
--Ben
Sure! Or the "power hungry bastards inspire tribalism based on religious differences for their personal gain, even if those religious differences are 'believes in religion' and 'doesn't believe in religion'" argument. A better analogue to the CR would be the Salem witch trials or the inquisition, though.
yrs--
--Ben
yrs--
--Ben
Thanks for doing your homework. Or, at least, reading the crib notes.
Einstein may not be the best argument (there are some excellent theistic physicists: I'll try to dig up some names for you.) Einstein seemed to not as much believe in God, or not believe in God, so much as believing in fucking with people's preconceptions of him.
Also, tangent.
Also, tangent.
No, we just haven't found it yet :D
See, this I actually know about. As far as I know, Stalin was just an atheist who did bad things, in which case, whatever. I happen to know that the Cultural Revolution was an action instigated by an official Atheist government (it's in their constitution, natch) in order to, among other things, destroy elements of their society that were not atheist.
The perpetrators of the Cultural Revolution were (by and large) raised atheist, and acted under a banner of "destroying the old society, raising up the new society."
To answer the question, I'm just grouchy. And displeased with moral superiority arguments.
The perpetrators of the Cultural Revolution were (by and large) raised atheist, and acted under a banner of "destroying the old society, raising up the new society."
To answer the question, I'm just grouchy. And displeased with moral superiority arguments.
The cultural revolution had nothing to do with atheism or Communism
That's a lie.
Except if you're willing to, by the same brush, say that the Crusades, the Inquisition, and 9/11 had nothing to do with theism, because they don't have to do with theism that you like during the modern day within your culture.
That's a lie.
Except if you're willing to, by the same brush, say that the Crusades, the Inquisition, and 9/11 had nothing to do with theism, because they don't have to do with theism that you like during the modern day within your culture.
I have to agree with benlehman on this one. TONS of people were killed in China SPECIFICALLY because of their religious beliefs.
I'm not saying that the motivation of the GOVERNMENT (and those directly in power) was a pure, "KILL THE THEISTS!" That was just their propaganda to tighten their oligarchical control over the nation (Mao didn't run everything). HOWEVER, the lower levels of the Communist Party bought it, and on a local level just about everywhere went atheist and killed people who would not.
Just because the Wizard behind the curtain doesn't believe in his powers doesn't mean that the people of the Emerald City don't believe in his powers.
I'm not saying that the motivation of the GOVERNMENT (and those directly in power) was a pure, "KILL THE THEISTS!" That was just their propaganda to tighten their oligarchical control over the nation (Mao didn't run everything). HOWEVER, the lower levels of the Communist Party bought it, and on a local level just about everywhere went atheist and killed people who would not.
Just because the Wizard behind the curtain doesn't believe in his powers doesn't mean that the people of the Emerald City don't believe in his powers.
I WILL have to say though that Atheists don't do horrible things in the name of their religion. You are wrong. They have done horrible things in the name of their non-belief.
There is a significant difference.
Ultimately, I'd say both you and John are right in some places and wrong in others.
I'd say a better argument/thesis would have been:
Atheists have committed genocide and other horrific acts against humanity motivated by their hatred for believers and in the name of atheism.
Also, quick note: Hitler was neither a atheist or a Christian, he was a occult mystic who had a Christian-Nationalist Society. I've seen the various patches for the concentration camps and Atheist is one of them. Stalin, however, was probably an atheist, but while Theists were oppressed, most of the time their crimes were listed as , "Subversion Against the State," (which was a political front), not, "For being a Christian."
There is a significant difference.
Ultimately, I'd say both you and John are right in some places and wrong in others.
I'd say a better argument/thesis would have been:
Atheists have committed genocide and other horrific acts against humanity motivated by their hatred for believers and in the name of atheism.
Also, quick note: Hitler was neither a atheist or a Christian, he was a occult mystic who had a Christian-Nationalist Society. I've seen the various patches for the concentration camps and Atheist is one of them. Stalin, however, was probably an atheist, but while Theists were oppressed, most of the time their crimes were listed as , "Subversion Against the State," (which was a political front), not, "For being a Christian."
You were absolutely right until you got to "both" - they're really the same way of thinking.
I mean, I'm about to state it in a way that sounds lame and dodgy, but really, a bunch of professed atheists can get together and start behaving like a cult, and when that happens, they've become a religion for the definition of "religion" that I have in mind here.
I mean, I'm about to state it in a way that sounds lame and dodgy, but really, a bunch of professed atheists can get together and start behaving like a cult, and when that happens, they've become a religion for the definition of "religion" that I have in mind here.
Your reason and your historical- and worldly perspective can't reach me. I'm angry at God.
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