I WILL have to say though that Atheists don't do horrible things in the name of their religion. You are wrong. They have done horrible things in the name of their non-belief.
There is a significant difference.
Ultimately, I'd say both you and John are right in some places and wrong in others.
I'd say a better argument/thesis would have been:
Atheists have committed genocide and other horrific acts against humanity motivated by their hatred for believers and in the name of atheism.
Also, quick note: Hitler was neither a atheist or a Christian, he was a occult mystic who had a Christian-Nationalist Society. I've seen the various patches for the concentration camps and Atheist is one of them. Stalin, however, was probably an atheist, but while Theists were oppressed, most of the time their crimes were listed as , "Subversion Against the State," (which was a political front), not, "For being a Christian."
As far as I know, China is the only nation in the world ever to have enshrined atheism as a special belief system under law and given special rights to atheists. People keep going on about Germany, the USSR, and Cambodia but that seems to just be a distraction.
And, you know, if people would go read a book they could make up their own minds about their culpability for it.
My own personal thought is that modern American Atheists are no more culpable for the cultural revolution than modern American Muslims are for 9/11, modern American Christians are for the Salem witch trials, and so on and so forth.
Atheism is not a belief system any more than determinism is a philosophy. Determinism (all actions are caused) is not a philosophy; it's a statement. An observation. You can't build a philosophy on determinism or atheism alone.
The statement "I don't believe in a deity" isn't enough to qualify as a philosophy any more than "I believe in a deity" is. You still need more.
I may have to disagree with you regarding your argument that you can't build a philosophy on determinism or atheism alone.
I'm reserving full disagreement for later, but I believe that there are a number of people who have built their belief systems on determinism and atheism alone.
Can you more fully define what you mean by philosophy. I think that you're creating a working definition of philosophy (as in, "The set of beliefs and ideas a person uses to go about their life in a rational manner") and not an esoteric definition (The ideas a person enjoys thinking about in abstract ways). Then after you've done that what are the limiting factors that prevent a person from having just one single core belief (There are no gods) to guide them?
I may have to disagree with you regarding your argument that you can't build a philosophy on determinism or atheism alone.
I have to disagree with that statement, too... because that's not what I said.
I said you cannot say a single statement of fact is a philosophy. "I don't believe in unicorns" is not a philosophy or a religion. You need more than a single statement to make a philosophy; that's why philosophers write entire books on the subject: to create a cohesive statement covering subjects as diverse as freedom, metaphysics, ethics, morals, etc.
I understand what you're saying now. At the time I was confused at what you meant by philosophy - was it a philosophical statement or a cohesive philosophical world view. I understand that it was the later now. ^_^
>>As far as I know, China is the only nation in the world ever to have enshrined atheism as a special belief system under law and given special rights to atheists. <<
Apparently the modern Chinese national constitution does not specifically enshrine Atheism. However, it enshrines the Communist party as the official state party, and the party's constitution enshrines Atheism as a required belief for all members.
"As far as I know, China is the only nation in the world ever to have enshrined atheism as a special belief system under law and given special rights to atheists."
Well, I'll admit that I am not up on my history details as much as I would like to be, but I am pretty sure there was a well-established and documented persecution of religion in the USSR starting from Lenin and going forward. As far as I recall, atheism and loyalty to the state (and the party) was the only acceptable position to take in Soviet Russia (just like China).
However, I can certainly understand sticking with the area of history one is most familiar with. It is what I do as well.
All in all, your main point seems rather obvious, especially when generalized. Throughout history any number of groups who found themselves in the ruling group have made persecuted/committed atrocities against some other group in the name/ideal of something or other. I would note that usually the underlying (or parallel) causes of such actions are also grabs for power/money.
I can see that you are reacting to some specific foolishness stated elsewhere, but really, most opinions that say "group A, which I happen to belong to, is SOOOO nice and NEVER EVER did anything bad or evil" are silly and are at best tangential to a worthwhile argument.
Out of curiosity, do you know if there was actually legally enshrined status for Atheism in the USSR (as there was and, to some degree, still is in China) or if it was strictly off the books?
I think it is tough for me to decipher what you mean by legally enshrined. I am sure there were written directives regarding the repossession of church property, the 'reduction' of preachers/etc in the nation and the educational focus on "worshiping" the state.
To quote wikipedia:
The regime's efforts to eradicate religion in the Soviet Union, however, varied over the years with respect to particular religions and have been affected by higher state interests. Official policies and practices not only varied with time but also differed in their application from one nationality to another and from one religion to another.
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no subject
There is a significant difference.
Ultimately, I'd say both you and John are right in some places and wrong in others.
I'd say a better argument/thesis would have been:
Atheists have committed genocide and other horrific acts against humanity motivated by their hatred for believers and in the name of atheism.
Also, quick note: Hitler was neither a atheist or a Christian, he was a occult mystic who had a Christian-Nationalist Society. I've seen the various patches for the concentration camps and Atheist is one of them. Stalin, however, was probably an atheist, but while Theists were oppressed, most of the time their crimes were listed as , "Subversion Against the State," (which was a political front), not, "For being a Christian."
no subject
As far as I know, China is the only nation in the world ever to have enshrined atheism as a special belief system under law and given special rights to atheists. People keep going on about Germany, the USSR, and Cambodia but that seems to just be a distraction.
And, you know, if people would go read a book they could make up their own minds about their culpability for it.
My own personal thought is that modern American Atheists are no more culpable for the cultural revolution than modern American Muslims are for 9/11, modern American Christians are for the Salem witch trials, and so on and so forth.
yrs--
--Ben
no subject
The statement "I don't believe in a deity" isn't enough to qualify as a philosophy any more than "I believe in a deity" is. You still need more.
no subject
I'm reserving full disagreement for later, but I believe that there are a number of people who have built their belief systems on determinism and atheism alone.
Can you more fully define what you mean by philosophy. I think that you're creating a working definition of philosophy (as in, "The set of beliefs and ideas a person uses to go about their life in a rational manner") and not an esoteric definition (The ideas a person enjoys thinking about in abstract ways). Then after you've done that what are the limiting factors that prevent a person from having just one single core belief (There are no gods) to guide them?
no subject
I have to disagree with that statement, too... because that's not what I said.
I said you cannot say a single statement of fact is a philosophy. "I don't believe in unicorns" is not a philosophy or a religion. You need more than a single statement to make a philosophy; that's why philosophers write entire books on the subject: to create a cohesive statement covering subjects as diverse as freedom, metaphysics, ethics, morals, etc.
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I think France did this in the 1790's, actually.
Matt
no subject
Apparently the modern Chinese national constitution does not specifically enshrine Atheism. However, it enshrines the Communist party as the official state party, and the party's constitution enshrines Atheism as a required belief for all members.
yrs--
--Ben
no subject
Well, I'll admit that I am not up on my history details as much as I would like to be, but I am pretty sure there was a well-established and documented persecution of religion in the USSR starting from Lenin and going forward. As far as I recall, atheism and loyalty to the state (and the party) was the only acceptable position to take in Soviet Russia (just like China).
However, I can certainly understand sticking with the area of history one is most familiar with. It is what I do as well.
All in all, your main point seems rather obvious, especially when generalized. Throughout history any number of groups who found themselves in the ruling group have made persecuted/committed atrocities against some other group in the name/ideal of something or other. I would note that usually the underlying (or parallel) causes of such actions are also grabs for power/money.
I can see that you are reacting to some specific foolishness stated elsewhere, but really, most opinions that say "group A, which I happen to belong to, is SOOOO nice and NEVER EVER did anything bad or evil" are silly and are at best tangential to a worthwhile argument.
no subject
Out of curiosity, do you know if there was actually legally enshrined status for Atheism in the USSR (as there was and, to some degree, still is in China) or if it was strictly off the books?
yrs--
--Ben
no subject
To quote wikipedia:
The regime's efforts to eradicate religion in the Soviet Union, however, varied over the years with respect to particular religions and have been affected by higher state interests. Official policies and practices not only varied with time but also differed in their application from one nationality to another and from one religion to another.