My conversation starter for Atheists

[benlehman]

It goes like this.

1) Consider a hypothetical world in which there is a study that conclusively proves that certain aspects of religious practice, or the practice of particular religion, has an immediate benefit to your health. (I'm aware that such studies exist in the real world, but they're flawed. I'm asking you to consider one that, to your eyes, is conclusive.)

a) Okay -> Go to 2.
b) I would never find such studies conclusive, regardless of the methodology or repeated results -> Go to END.
c) I cannot imagine such a world -> Go to END.

2) Now you've imagined this world. Would you take up that religious practice?

a) No, it's a bunch of superstition -> Go to END.
b) No, I barely even eat right anyway -> Go to 3.
c) Yes, of course -> Go to 3.

3) Consider yourself/someone else who purported to be an atheist, but took up this practice. Are they still an atheist?

a) No, duh -> Go to 4
b) Yes, duh -> Go to 4
c) Maybe, it's complicated -> Go to 4

4) Do you consider them more or less rational?

a) Yes, they're helping their health -> Go to End
b) No, they're practicing a superstition -> Go to End
c) Huh. -> Go to End

End) Huh. Isn't that ... interesting?

Comments

[benlehman.livejournal.com]

I'd say that, at that point, you've got some pretty good evidence that Ra is the One True God, and a bit anal-retentive (and certainly more puissant than that Johnny-come-lately Odin).

Really? I'd say that, scientifically speaking, you have absolutely no evidence for that at all (take your nutrition example below.)

So, would you consider someone who did that practice less of an Atheist? How about someone who refused to, on the grounds that they did not believe in Ra? Who would you consider more rational?

yrs--
--Ben

[evilmagnus]

Perhaps you missed the bit where I said 'Praise Odin' didn't work ... sure, there's follow-up tests to be done, but if 'Praise Ra' and *only* 'Praise Ra' works, then it is reasonable to assume that the word 'Ra' is a vital part of the efficacy. One follow-up, of course, would be to find out if knowledge or belief in 'Ra-the-Sun-God-Ra' that was required, or just saying the *sound* 'Ra' without any additional knowledge or belief of Egyptian mythos.

It's certainly compelling circumstantial evidence that could be further refined. To your second question, I'd say, no, not necessarily. It could just be the particular invocation that has a beneficial effect; no belief in Sun Gods necessary, which would make the entire process no different from eating your veggies and exercising.

But you're right - the scientific grounds for Ra's existence, given my first experiment above, is pretty shaky. But it could be refined! ;)

[wunderworks.livejournal.com]

I'd say that the only evidence is that repeating that phrase makes you live longer, just like living on the Isle of Sicily makes one live longer - on average.

Does that create any rational or irrational response? The real question is - can you call anything rational or irrational, and in fact can you actually know anything - current philosophers believe that we can only believe something with a rough 95% certainty, and have no real knowledge. To be able to tease out what is a rational response vs. something that may prima facia appear rational (I sneeze so I wipe my nose with a kleenex) with the reality (I wiped my nose with a kleenex because I'm afraid of evil spirits inhabiting my body) is nigh impossible.

[wunderworks.livejournal.com]

A Zen story-teller might tell this story when asked about what is rational:

‘A farmer lived in the days when fighting was going on between small kingdoms in China. This farmer had a son. His son, with the aid of the horse, was tilling a small field. One day the horse ran away. The neighbors came and said, 'It's a very bad thing. You have such bad luck.’ The farmer said, ‘Maybe.’ So the next day the horse came back with half a dozen other wild horses. The neighbors came again and they said, ‘What tremendous luck.’ So he said, ‘Maybe.’ On the third day the son, while trying to ride one of the wild horses, fell and broke his leg. Again, the neighbors came and said what bad luck it was, and the farmer said, ‘Maybe.’ The next day the king's people came to recruit strong healthy farmers into the army. When they found this farmer's son with a broken leg they left him alone. So, again, the neighbors came and said it wasn't such bad luck after all and that everything had turned out well. The farmer said, again, ‘Maybe.’’